1

In Romanian, two letters are currently used for the /ɨ/ (i with bar) sound (close central unrounded vowel), namely "â" and "î". There used to be other letters as well, retained from an earlier stage of the language in order to reflect the etymology of the words, like û, ê, etc.

However, this is somewhat at odds with Romanian orthography in general as our language is a so-called "phonetic" one; in other words, we write as we pronounce. So the goal is to use one letter for each sound.

Many people argue that the best letter to represent the /ɨ/ sound is "î". But, while I agree "î" is a good candidate, I don't see why "â" would not be an equally good choice. Here is my reasoning:

/ɨ/, while not close to the /a/ vowel sound, is actually close to /ə/ (mid central vowel), denoted in Romanian by the "ă" letter.

And, therefore, I don't think /ɨ/ is closer to /i/ than it is to /ə/.

My question is: Are both letters a good candidate to represent the sound /ɨ/? Or does indeed only "î" make sense?

20
  • 2
    The main reason for having those two letters is having something like an <a> in the Romanian word “România” so that it remind the Latin word. If only <î> exists, then the word “Romînia” doesn't look really Roman. What I mean is that the reason is purely imperialistic, “our ancestry is great!”
    – Yellow Sky
    Commented Mar 6 at 14:22
  • @YellowSky This is exactly what I'm writing about. Nobody seems to take into account the possibility of only having "â", and get rid of "î". Why? I've heard phonetic arguments. That î and i alternate. But so do â and ă (e.g urât/urăsc)
    – Dan
    Commented Mar 7 at 10:01
  • @JanusBahsJacquet Agreed! You're the first one I've seen to take the defence of â. And I like it! Since I never understood why favor "î"?
    – Dan
    Commented Mar 7 at 10:02
  • 2
    @YellowSky - Saying that writing ”România” instead of ”Romînia” is ”imperialistic” is so exaggerated a statement that it is a bit funny. I personally deplore, though, the trend that was encouraged by the idea that we MUST write it like that. Some people even got in the back of their heads thinking that [ɨ] and [ə] sounds are somewhat ”Slavic” in nature if not even ...Russian. But far from being caused by some imperialistic trend, I see it as a collective neurotic trend based by inferiority cultural complexes related to perceived backwardness and historical traumas that are nor hard to explain.
    – cipricus
    Commented Jul 15 at 9:08
  • 1
    @YellowSky - What you call an imperialistic trend I'd rather call a half-snobbish half-neurotic one. I stand by the linguistic arguments at the book available at a link I posted (it's in Romanian). I think your-anti-imperialistic line of argument is an overkill. Personally, I detest ”only” the replacement of SÎNT with SUNT. It is a bit like English speakers waking up one day and learn that they should sat it I UM instead of I AM!
    – cipricus
    Commented Jul 15 at 9:19

2 Answers 2

2

Historically speaking Romanian /ɨ/ evolved from /ə/, and there are very few words where they contrast. Hence I would suggest â to emphasise the connection with ă.

2
  • Letter  was re-generalized in 1993 in order to go back to a half-etymological tradition of writing (given that Romanian cannot adopt a fully consistent etymological writing) that would bring forth Latin continuity A>Â. But most words stating with ÎN- and the preposition ÎN come from Latin IN. Putting  there instead of Î would contradict the only meaning the 1993 reform had. As for the rest,  is already in place. For what cases do you ”suggest â”?
    – cipricus
    Commented Jul 15 at 17:09
  • Also, it is to be noted that although some linguists may hypothesize an evolution from various unstressed Latin vowels to Romanian /ɨ/ through an intermediary stage /ə/ or /∧/, that stage is not in fact attested at all, and is just a supposition on the basis of which we can hardly imagine orthographic changes.
    – cipricus
    Commented Jul 15 at 17:23
1

SHORT ANSWERS:

You say in a comment:

no one offers an answer as why not to use the "â" letter alone, instead of "î"

If that is your main question, the answer is the following: the intention of the 1993 reform that generalized â without eliminating î was based on an etymological logic, not on the one of phonetic consistency and uniformity, which is behind your suggestion. If consistency were the goal, no 1993 reform would have existed. But Romanian kept some level of etymological reasoning because of the ROMÂN/ROMÂNIA family. Now, after 1993, that reasoning became more influential, but some things are far too obvious, namely that words starting with ÎN (like început) are descending from Latin forms with i (incipit), while the preposition ÎN itself is reflecting the Latin IN. Without explicitly arguing it, it is because of omnipresence of words starting with Latin IN that the rule was introduced that Î will stay Î at the beginning of words. I see no other reason, although it makes no sense for words like înger, when ânger would have been closer to Latin angelus. Why these inconsistencies: because the 1993 reform is an inconsistent etymological reform.

If your question is that in the title, the answer is YES.


LONGER ANSWERS:

It is a matter of standardization and consistency. Consistency seems to be your concern here. But that goes against your argument or impression: Î letter is based on (is a variation of) I, Â-letter is based on A. The close central unrounded vowel is noted phonetically ɨ for the simple reason that it is closer to I than to A.

See vowel chart image here.

vowel chart

Is /ɨ/ more close /i/ than it is to /ə/? YES! But it is even closer to /i/ than to /a/, which would be what you should ask in order to have the change you want!

And it is not just ”some people” that think the 1993 change was wrong: most linguists do, and the decision was made by non-specialists dominating the Romanian Academy. See here the principal arguments.

Even within your own terms, I don't see why you talk about closeness of îÎ to ăĂ as an argument for Ââ against Îî, when the significant aspect here is whether îÎ/âÎ (the ɨ sound) is closer to /a/ than to /i/.

The presence (re-introduction) of â in Romanian is based on etymological reasons, a type of reasons that as you suggested are not determinant in Romanian writing overall, but were used here exceptionally, or rather in an odd way: instead of the exceptional status of the words relating to Romania/Romanian before 1993, where only these words had â to reflect Roman etymology (and I don't see what's imperialistic about that! - unlike what some comments say here - it is an exceptional case, that of the words that are not just of Latin origin but self-referentially indicate that origin!), that exception became the rule, because supposedly more Romanian words of Latin origin containing the ɨ sound have that sound evolving from A than from other vowels, namely I.

What you ask is why not simplify further in the direction initiated in 1993. That is a fair question, but the argument cannot be that ɨ and ə are close: the reference is given by the limits /a/ and /i/, because they are written in Romanian as A and I, which give the model for Ă, Â and Î. There are huge obstacles against what you suggest, even etymological ones, one of them being that the typically Romance-looking and expected prefix of Latin origin IN- which in Romanian gave ÎN- should be written ÂN-! (In fact I think the frequency of that form would easily push up the number of most frequently used words with I-based Latin etymology.)

There are problems with the 1993 reform, but what you propose is not a way out of them.

In my opinion the most severe problem with the 1993 reform was that SÎNT was replaced with SUNT in pronunciation, something unheard of before! That was not even done explicitelly, but by simply forgetting to mention that SUNT is to be just an orthografic change - like the 1934 reform explicitelly mentioned: see here, page 16, ”formele cu Î ale verbului a fi se scriu cu U”: the Î-forms of the verb TO BE will be written with U. (”The Î-forms” simply means ”the phonetic-Δ!) Thus, after 1934 SUNT was read /sɨnt/, but after 1993 the /sunt/ pronunciation became standard and /sɨnt/ became irregular! - The merit of the consistency you suggest is that it would have avoided the removal of /sɨnt/ , which would have remained at least as SÂNT. Why was just SUNT accepted? Because that was the orthography between 1934 and 1956 (not before and not in all papers though!). That after 1934 SUNT was to be read /sɨnt/, the amateurish reform of 1993 simply forgot!

(It is the communist authorities who pretended, falsely, that - like any good thing they did, from electrification to vaccination - the 1956 reform was ”communist” in nature and anti-bourgeois, when in fact it was restoring things from before 1934 and simply deciding in favor of a consistent development that had started in the 19th century. People saying that 1993 reform was anti-communist are thus repeating communist propaganda!)


EDIT IN RESPONSE TO OP COMMENTS:

In replay to the OP comments :

(Overall reply: please read https://bjiasi.ro/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/REFORME-ORTOGRAFICE.pdf)

"Masînă" is very speicfic Moldavian regional pronunciation with slavic influences.

„Mașînă” was how my old grandmother from Teleorman said it and there's nothing Slavic about it. She also said EU ZÎC for EU ZIC, and such regional ways of speaking all over Romania have nothing to do with Slavic influences. You should read more about the history of the language, Rosetti, Chitorac, Margaret E. L. Renwick and such before formulating your categorical statements. There basically is no Πsound in Serbian and Bulgarian, but is the way Bulgarian ĂOE was in many cases reduced into Romanian: î is a fundamental and typical Romanian sound, although it might have evolved from ăĂ during an unattested moment. In the book Phonetics and Phonology of Contrast, The Case of Romanian Vowel System by Margaret E. L. Renwick we can read how the Romanian /ɨ/ sound was created within Romanian as part of a specific mechanism of transformation which later was applied to Slavic words. The impact of Slavic and later Turkish has accelerated the process of development and separation of /ɨ/ from ăĂ (that is: /ʌ/) because /ɨ/ was used to assimilate such borrowing into Romanian: which proves that there is a Romanian mechanism at play with the development of /ɨ/, not a simple Slavic borrowing as many naively think. - If you think Moldavian speech is somehow spechifically Slavic-influenced you are very wrong: Slavic influences on Romanian are of southern origin and are equally distributed (for the very reason that the present area of the language was occupied after the main Slavic impact by people comming all from the same place, namely Transylvania).

I personally think sînt and pîine and cîine are ugly! I just can't stand >them.

I am instead tired of this kind of childish arguments. Please read the book from the Iași linguistic institute that I have linked above, and then see if the light of reason (specialists, wise people with real experience in linguistics, which is a real science, not a whim! for God’s sake) is not preferable to impressionism. You can also see my reddit posts in which I have tried to explain why this hate against ÂÎ (I mean not just the Î letter, but the sound!) is a naive, snobish and even neurotic trend. Reading Margaret E. L. Renwick’s book I have realized though that it might be another reason here: the mechanism that was at play within Romanian language which has produced the ÎÂ sound has stopped working at some point, while the language has entered the modern era. It might be that this transition has created some type of allergy to it in some Romanian speakers, also because of the sudden exposure to the rest of Romance, where we feel the need to be accepted and recognized. It might take some time for our inferiority complexes to cool down and to realize that REALLY Romanian is SO Latin that nobody cares about our self-doubts and our ruminations whether ÎÂ is worthy of a descendant of the blood-thursty Romans! We should in fact be so self-confident as to be able to write ”Romînia” and still feel Latin as hell! (Just like we should consider the possibility that Romanians might be Balkan-Latins and not Dacians, without fearing the loss of Transylvania etc.) Still, I think our national neurosis is at play here and won’t heal easily.

because I tend to actually pronounce [sunt] and not [sînt];

No hate. But I am polemic about it because I love my language, I am invested in it deeply, I have a literary and philosophical education and think I know what such phenomena say about language and thought, both individually and collectively. I am basically furious that I cannot change people’s minds. But I guess I can be wise enough to accept fatality. Eminescu himself was able to write SUNT, although he said SÎNT (see my reddit link). I accept the â-generalization as a fait accompli, I can accept SUNT, but not as an exclusive form and certainly not obligatory in speech! but I refuse the idea that SÎNT is not a correct word and that children should be taught that idea. I know that writing can impact spelling (there is a book about that) but I hate how this was done and what it says about those who pushed it: ignorance, authoritarianism, docility, short-sightedness!

it's a common misconception that the reform only changed the wiring and >not also the pronunciation

Stop being patronizing. I was mature when that happened, it took decades for people to realize there is more than a orthographic reform involved. Linguists debating the issue even concentrated only on the â-î problem because they didn’t even imagined that a Sînt-SUNT change will affect the way people should speak (read the famous article by Alf Lombard article on dexonline! https://dexonline.ro/article/Alf_Lombard_-_Despre_folosirea_literelor_î_și_â). I have all the documents of the reform (there are also in the Iași book) and I have commented on the matter on reddit link if you ever care to get into that. Note that the 1993 reform basically wants to go back to before 1956, that is, to 1934 (or is it 1931?) reform. But there the SUNT is presented EXPLICITLY as an EXCLUSIVE orthographic change. That people started to say it SUNT under the impact of writing it’s another matter.

E, Ionescu.

I have videos with Iorga, G. Călinescu and others saying SÎNT. That is not the issue anyway. The problem is that SÎNT cannot be forbidden in schools, as it is now (I fear).

doom.lingv.ro

That the passage you indicate was necessary is very significant and totally ridiculous! It is a proof of the initial confusion and of the fact that those that did the reform didn't know what they were doing. The fact that no lingust voted in favor is no misconception! Those ex-militaries and elecronic engeneers that decided on the language got mixed up in a series of consequences they did not unticipated initially, so that only step-by-step started regulating on what happens with îâ at the end, after prefixes etc. Luckily they had the 1934 reform that they could use as a guide, but too bad they omitted the part about SUNT! They didn't feel the need to present a serious and ballanced argumentation, just boasted about historical significance, communist persecution and ”Russification” using pompous nationalistic slogans, as if Romanian communism hadn't been nationalistic at all and they were the late-coming restorers of national language. They blatantly stated they repaired some injury done by the communists - thus simply repeating what the communists themselves pretended they did: there is no surprise there though: the people of the 1991-93 reform were all former communist dignitaries...

https://doom.lingv.ro/studiu_introductiv/reguli_scriere_pronuntare 2.2.2 sânt, sînt sau sunt?

Of course reasonable people got confused. They got confused that some other people could imagine they can overnight change the most important form of the most important verb of a language. I bet that has never happened before in the history of the world!

13
  • I don’t think it really makes sense to say that [ɨ] is closer to [i] than to [ə] – the distance between each pair is pretty much exactly the same, just in different directions. Also, did you mean to write that the Latin prefix in- became the Romanian suffix -ân/-în? Commented Jul 15 at 8:08
  • @JanusBahsJacquet - ”I don’t think it really makes sense to say that [ɨ] is closer to [i] than to [ə]”: I think it is a bit closer in the chart, as it is a closed vowel anyway, I as a native speaker feel it like that, I put Ă close to A and Πclose to I: in regional/popular speech I-words like MAȘINĂ can be said /maʃɨnə/, but NEVER /maʃənə/! . Romanian children when small can say /kine/ for CÂINE but not /kəne/ .But that is secondary. What counts against the argument of the OP is that ** [ɨ] is closer to [i] than to [a]”: A is the standard for  and Ă.
    – cipricus
    Commented Jul 15 at 8:48
  • @JanusBahsJacquet - ”did you mean to write that the Latin prefix in- became the Romanian suffix -ân/-în”. Sorry, I only meant ÎN- and ÎN, not -ÎN, I have corrected now. And it is not really a prefix anymore if it ever was. It is just that many Romanian words follow Latin IN>ÎN at the beginning of words and in the ÎN preposition itself.
    – cipricus
    Commented Jul 15 at 8:51
  • 1
    Oh, in that case, what you really mean is that there’s a closer (morpho)phonemic relation between the two in Romanian – i.e., they are perceived as being more closely related. In purely phonetic terms, the distance between front-close and central-close is pretty indistinguishable from the distance between central-close and central-mid, but that of course doesn’t mean that they are perceived by Romanian speakers as being equidistant (English is the other way around, with /ɨ/ and /ə/ often in free variation with each other, but only with /i/ in a few words). Commented Jul 15 at 9:34
  • 1
    @Dan - See my replies as edit in my above answer. Comments are not for lengthy discussion.
    – cipricus
    Commented Jul 16 at 15:34

Your Answer

By clicking “Post Your Answer”, you agree to our terms of service and acknowledge you have read our privacy policy.

Not the answer you're looking for? Browse other questions tagged or ask your own question.