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As a follow up to a recent question (1) where it is argued that the effect of substrate on the second language is most remarkable in phonology:

Do you know if this has biological reasons in production (bones, muscles, innervation, etc.) and perception (cognition), or what?

I have heard that children's ability to learn phonemes drops off after the first six months, but the causes and implications were left unexplained (Lingthusiasm Episode 12 [2], refering us for the age claim to Non-native phonemes in adult word learning: evidence from the N400m [2]).


Update, now that I reviewed the source:

Gretchen McMuloch (Lingthusiasm) explains:

So, there are pairs – so in English, for example, English babies retain the ability to hear the difference between “ba ba ba,” “pa pa pa,” but they don’t retain the ability to hear the difference between “ta ta ta” and “ʈa ʈa ʈa” and –

[...] the second ones were produced with my tongue curled back so that the bottom of my tongue was touching the roof of my mouth.

[...] I can produce them because I know where to put my tongue, but I can’t actually hear the difference.

[Transcript]

I have listened to enough English speaking podcasters mentioning comparanda from German to know that Gretchen has with a relatively high degree of probabability not produced those sounds in a manner that would be unmarked to any Nepali speaker. This agrees with the premise of the related question (1), which is after all not in doubt.

It is arguable that the perception is relied on in practice. The language learner practicing a given realization has no way to reinforce their progress in training if they cannot perceive the sound. This does not answer the question to satisfaction, because it denies the purpose of practice. Even if they reach an acceptable stage where most of all minimal pairs could be distinguished, the vast majority of late second-language learners have a ''thick accent'', effectively creating allophones. Some idiolects can be close to incomprehensible, despite a certain degree of fluency.

Infants babble, progressing through a series of phonemes which are typologically common. I know I do when reading the description of a phoneme.

I expect that baby talk develops a representation of the sounds which may be rather abstract, and that the production conditions the cognition as well. It is no coincident that /m/ is among the simpler and most common phonemes (as has been argued for mama).

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    [biological reasons] substrate as found in that link means nothing to me. It is some kind of translation error.
    – Lambie
    Commented Jul 11, 2022 at 23:51
  • @Lambie I understand you mean that the concept of native language is ill-defined. Nevertheless, for the sake of the argument ... and in spirit of your comment, I'm sure you can try to accommodate.
    – vectory
    Commented Jul 12, 2022 at 5:06
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    Your question makes no sense in any English that I know.
    – Lambie
    Commented Jul 12, 2022 at 13:24
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    @Lambie The quote in the linked question uses the term substrate in a perfectly standard and commonplace way. The fact that you don’t know what a word means does not mean it’s a translation error. Commented Jul 12, 2022 at 22:13
  • Maybe that was a jab at my punctuation. I don't speak headlinese. (Now I have edited the title and all)
    – vectory
    Commented Jul 12, 2022 at 22:29

2 Answers 2

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Discovering that a language has a particular syntactic peculiarity requires that you have a relatively deep knowledge of the language, thus you won’t know about syntactic V2 in a Germanic language unless you can speak the language moderately well. You will not know the word order of Hindi unless you learn some Hindi. You will not know the structure of a Turkish word with one root and 7 suffixes, unless you know Turkish to some degree. But, you can discern “what a language sounds like” with rather superficial exposure. You may be wrong in the specific identification (Mandarin rather than Shanghainese; Lushootseed rather than Kwakwala). Relying on superficial phonetic patterns, you can notice implosives in some Asian languages, and some vowel-quality properties, that allow you to say “He speaks Vietnamese” (or a similar language). Superficial phonetic knowledge is the easiest thing to learn from speech (when you say it that way, it seems rather obvious). This is not to say that in the future, “language contact” might not be predominantly in written form (thanks to the internet), but at least classically, the foundation of language contact is spoken language. Syntactic parsing logically depends on converting the speech stream into segments – phonetic knowledge. This also means that phonetic patterns are easily transmissible, and true phonological patterns (abstract alternations such as the phonology of glides in Arabic verb conjugation) are also difficult to pick up from superficial exposure.

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  • I’m not sure we really need to be in the hypothetical future. Quite a lot of language contact already comes through written media, resulting in loan words which enter a language via speakers who don’t know the target language well enough, and which therefore – by the pronunciation rules of both the source and destination languages – are mispronounced. For example, the Scandinavian tendency to pronounce the English loanword steak as /sti:k/, which matches neither English pronunciation nor any expected Scandinavian pronunciation based on spelling. Commented Jul 11, 2022 at 19:23
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Supposedly, children gradually stop paying attention to sound distinctions that aren't relevant to the language they hear as infants, so I would say perception.

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    I was going to post this as a comment, but I think you're not really supposed to answer in comments even if your answer is weak.
    – Mr. Nichan
    Commented Jul 11, 2022 at 16:42

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